Ginny U wrote on Aug 22, 2006 12:59 AM:It would be interesting to match test statistics with attendance records, and percentage of class assignments and homework assignments completed. There are so many factors affecting learning achievement in schools. Attendance and attitude towards learning are just two of the important factors to add to the mix. Class size is another extremely important component. As a teacher for 38 years in California Schools, I know that simply offering more training to teachers who are already highly trained, may not be the only answer to this problem.

Gordonius wrote on Aug 22, 2006 6:02 AM:How is it that Oceanside is singled out in headlines...as having a racial test gap...when it is ranked higher than the state averages...and why is it that English is the first mentioned criteria? Could it be that prejudices are showing?

James wrote on Aug 22, 2006 6:22 AM:Instead of once again throwing out the race card why not use a more emperical standard. For instance lets see how many students who go to class, pay attention to the lessons, can spaek EnGLISH, do the homework etc....How many of these students cannot pass the test's? Versus the kids who do none of these things.

Margaret wrote on Aug 22, 2006 7:20 AM:Unfortunately, all this extra effort and money used for the below grade level students takes away from the students that are above or at grade level. Our smart kids are being ignored and taught that it is OK to be average. More funds should be aimed at our smart kids so they are taught to strive for academic excellence not just to accept being "at grade level".

Concerned wrote on Aug 22, 2006 8:40 AM:I agree with Ginny, especially about putting the burden on the teachers. It's not about the teachers. And, it's not about being black, brown or white. It's about attendance and attitude, which goes right to the parents. The things I see that schools could do would be reaching out to the parents (verbally, in writing, in person) and getting them involved. Secondly, and a bit off point, we need to stop the ESL bs. Teach in English and only in English. I grew up with a bunch of latinos whose parents didn't speak a lot of English, and the kids did just fine. Kids are smart, give them a chance. Stop blaming the system and start treating problem: parental involvement.

Norm wrote on Aug 22, 2006 9:17 AM:Genetics.

So Cal Native wrote on Aug 22, 2006 9:30 AM:Of course NCT will throw out the race card in Oceanside because it sells papers. Should of read State standards or something. Very poor heading!

Totally Agree wrote on Aug 22, 2006 9:58 AM:I agree 100% with concerned and Ginny. Let's not blame teachers and have parents take responsibility. My parents in the 30's didn't have ESL but they learned quickly when swatted. In no way am I saying corporal punishment but they learned and had no government help back then. I don't want my grandchildren being held back because their classes are being taught in both English and Spanish. As for race, this isn't a race issue as it doesn't matter what country they are from we should be teaching in English and not forgetting out English speaking students.

CA Expatriat wrote on Aug 22, 2006 10:27 AM:What about the Asian kids? Why is it that 1st and 2nd generation Asian children are never mentioned in these studies? Could it be because they, as a population, do much better than all the other populations combined? So what is it, Norm; genetics? For everyone else, I'm being sarcastic. When the parents begin to get involved with their children's education and future success, and begin to emphasize hard work in all aspects of life, perhaps some of this alleged "race gap" will shrink or go away. Just like it has in the Asian population. Imagine that.

Parents Matter wrote on Aug 22, 2006 11:36 AM:The difference is the parents. Parents that pay attention and show interest have better students. Those that get involved have even better students. But let's not completely ignore the system. Teachers need to be teaching, and it seems that they spend more and more time getting trained, meeting with administrators in teacher-teams, etc. than they ever have before. My kids get out of school every Wednesday at 12:30, and based on my experience helping at the school, this is pretty much a wasted day.

$oside wrote on Aug 22, 2006 12:02 PM:It reminds me of attending ElCamino High School in the 90s. Being in AP classes we were like a herd, same 40 people in all the same classes. Not sure what everyone else was learning. It seems like the focus was getting us AP kids into college because they knew our parents cared. Everyone else I guess was just being held for 4 years until they can be pushed into society. But thats probably not just El Camino but schools in general since the focus has been on graduation rates. In the 50s less than half of America had a high school diploma now its over 90%. Just pushing them through to meet a statistic.

Jpi wrote on Aug 22, 2006 1:03 PM:Every body pretty much blame the parents, How you ever think about the quality of education your kids receive at school? The teacher's union is one of the worse in the country, have the union ever eject a teacher for not providing high scores on thier students? Teacher's union is one of the things that need to be removed in order to improve education. Regards Jpi

Dug wrote on Aug 22, 2006 2:18 PM:Perhaps it may have to do with separate cultural upbrings, trainings, and experiences. Typically, when two cultures collide and assimilation takes place, there arises anew cultural that may not bear resemblance to either of the previous cultures; but an entirely new culture. Yet, if one of those from within one of the cultures refuses to assimilate, change, rebellion, discord and failure result. (Remember the Alamo?!) It is not about race, it is about behaviors and attitudes. Change is difficult for all of us sinners. God Bless America.

Col. Sanders wrote on Aug 22, 2006 2:19 PM:THAT'S RACIST!!!

$oside wrote on Aug 22, 2006 2:45 PM:I'm curious about why we do education the way we do. i remember high school being empty after 1:30pm but then I hear complaints that we dont have enough facilities. Use the rooms then, stagger school hours. Saturday and Sunday could be school days to. And a bigger shocker, kids in school in the summer the rest of the workforce doesnt get three months off. I do realize teachers work longer grading papers and such but is there a shortage on teachers or is the union keeping the numbers low, I have a few friends that dont get hired on as permanent staff. I could be wrong on these but I'd like to get a good explanation why these practices are still in use.

OHS Pirate wrote on Aug 22, 2006 2:46 PM:This hasn't anything to do with any racial differences. If the students are attending school here- then they need to study harder. English is the only language that any testing and teaching should be done in. After all, when they start entering the working world of America- they may need to speak even better English. Nothing new here. This stuff has been going on since I went to high school here. Love my brothers.

Responsible for your own actions wrote on Aug 22, 2006 2:51 PM: Ginny hit the nail on the head. If everybody in the room has access to the same information, why is it that some students score well and others don't? I didn't receive good grades in high school because it wasn't high on my priority list. Now, I'm in my forties and I've been attending night classes over the last couple of years. I get straight A's because I study every spare moment and wouldn't miss a class because I fear falling behind or missing something important. School has never been easy for me, but I really WANT TO LEARN. It's all about attitude. You can't force feed kids information if they really don't care about learning. It's easy for irresponsible parents to blame teachers or the system when their kids do poorly. Where do you think that a lot of these kids get their bad attitudes from? These are the same parents that say the police are picking on their children when they get arrested. It's really simple. The gap between races is a pretty good indicator that attitudes and appreciation for education among those groups need to change. Those that want to learn apply themselves, those that don't care, don't get good grades

Laid back Surfer wrote on Aug 22, 2006 2:52 PM:Ginny, I hope you consider a run for school board. You are a voice of reason.

To Clueless JPI wrote on Aug 22, 2006 5:50 PM:To jpi: I'd really like to know how much time you've spent in a classroom. You sound like so many people who shoot off their mouths about schools today, but who have no firsthand experience. As a teacher, I firmly believe the greatest predicter of student success is the parents. Even parents who don't speak English can have successful students if they stress upon their kids the importance of school, homework, respect, and learning.

PJ wrote on Aug 22, 2006 5:56 PM:Good for you, Ginny! I also wonder how many of those kids even had a decent breakfast before the test...and I don't mean a donut! I am astounded how many kids don't even get the consideration at home to have a decent meal before going off to school. OH! I forgot...that's become the school's job too! Silly me! Bottom line, too many people having kids willy nilly without a single thought about the commitment of raising another human being and the importance of a stable home life. Society is paying for this big time.

Love it wrote on Aug 22, 2006 6:48 PM:Love how people inject topics into the discussion which have absolutely nothing to do with the article, did I read something completely different. It is not a race card being played, it is a fact that some groups are not performing as well as others. Is it wrong to recognize a problem? Bottom line is parenting.

Sally wrote on Aug 22, 2006 9:26 PM:Thanks to Keith Rushing for this excellent story on issues within the Oceanside School District. It's great to have some real reporting at the NC Times.

to "Responsible" wrote on Aug 23, 2006 12:37 PM:So you are saying that your parents were responsible for the attitudes that led to your poor HS performance?

I'm Responsible wrote on Aug 23, 2006 10:45 PM:No, that's not what I'm saying. My father exited high school and went directly into the miltary and to war. When he returned, he went to work on an automotive assembly line in Detroit. His father also lacked a college degree or higher education. My parents never instilled in me the importance of achieving good grades and pursuing a college education. I didn't recognize this on my own at the time and it's my own fault. However, I was always taught to take responsibility for my own actions and accept the consequences for my errors. When I hear others blaming the system for their child's scholastic failures, I can't help but think that this "victim" attitude is passed on to their children. My parents never blamed my teachers for my own lack of motivation. What I said in my previous post was "Where do you think that a lot of these kids get their bad attitudes from?" I didn't say all